What is the difference between spiritual body and soul?

Goswami Maharaj: Hare Krsna. So, any questions from anyone? Priyanana Didi.
Question: I have, for me is not clear the difference between spiritual body and the soul.
Goswami Maharaj: Spiritual body and soul. They are synonymous. Same thing.
Devotee: We're talking about with Bhakti Lalita another day, and she said that by getting prasadam [not clear] even the soul, the senses of our body they re changing.
Goswami Maharaj: That's about the physical body.
Devotee: So, it's the same.
Goswami Maharaj: I don't understand here. I thought you said, spiritual body and atma.
Devotee: Yes, what's the difference between soul, atma, and spiritual body.  

How atma can be defined?

Goswami Maharaj: Yes, but this thing about cells changing every seven years, that's about physical body. I mean that's apparently what they say in science. Well, anyway, perhaps, what we're trying to get out here is that the word atma is defined variously. So, let's use the general term, self. So, it's been pointed out, I forget, it might be the Visva Kos (?) dictionary, but one of the Sanskrit dictionaries, saying that depending on one's conception of self, you can define atma. So, there can be a context, if someone is in an overwhelmingly bodily concept of self, that's atma. Atma can also mean mind. Like in the Bhagavad-gita sloka,

udhare ratma natmanam … atma eva ripur atma eva ripur atmanam

So, here atma can mean mind, it can mean the intelligence, it can mean various things, the self, how you conceive of the self. And the soul, but when we say soul, again that's a general term. Like we're equating consciousness and soul, consciousness being a symptom of the soul's presence. But then we have consciousness and remebrence of Krsna, consciousness of forgetfulness of Krsna. So, when we speak of the svarup, that means our, as you say, spiritual body, or our own actual spiritual self, that I've told before, that as we will take it, that this body is generated from exploiting tendencies. Jala-jana-nava lakhane stalavenksati (?). It's mentioned by Padma-purana, by combinations of the three modes of nature you have millions of variations of life forms. So, the soul in delusion, the body is the biological expression of the soul's delusion. But conversely, when you can't, [it'll be too distracting for me if you're speaking while I'm trying to speak also]. So, the body is the biological expression of the soul's delusion. It's the outcome of the exploiting tendencies. So, you have all these millions of variations upon this principle of exploitation from gross exploitation to subtle levels of exploitation.  

Abrahma bhuvana loka punar avrtanorjuna  

This is mentioned in the eight chapter of the Bhagavad-gita from Brahma loka to the lowest positions. Siva vrnchi amangalam, it's mentioned in the Bhagavatam, even vrnchi, Bramha, there is some inauspiciousness even in his world there. And the bodies on the Brahma-loka, we find out in the second canto of Srimad Bhagavatam, even though Brahma lives for three hundred eleven trillion years approximately, an average life span on a Satya-loka planets is fifteen trillion years, still they have to die.  

So, the world of exploitation, and bodies are enabling exploiting tendencies. On the basis of the statements of Saraswati Thakur, Bhaktivinod Thakur, Srila Guru Maharaj, we're saying that as the physical, the subtle and gross bodies are the outcome of exploiting tendency, the svarup, or the spiritual body is comprised of dedicating tendency, of devotional tendencies. Srila Guru Maharaj mentions the concept of ruchi-pariksa, which means when the Guru is examining the ruci the taste of his disciple, as Saraswati Thakur did to him on the Vraja-mandal-parikrama, when they come to Kadamba-kandi, and Saraswati Tahkur said, "Which place did you like best?" He said, "Kadamba-kandi." Then some years later, the party again they're on tour, and they come to Kadamba-kandi, and Saraswati Thaur said, "Your place." And Guru Maharaj's realizing, "Oh, he's examining the taste and spiritual tendency."  

So, when Bhaktivinod Thakur says in the nama-hatta of Nityananda Prabhu he signs as a sweeper, Kedaranath Bhaktivinod, Srila Saraswati Thakur said, "If Bhaktivinod Thakur is a sweeper in that divine domain, then I'm one of the straws in his broom." And Srila Guru Maharaj made this observation, "If we take this as a sincere expression," which we do, "Then you can understand the unit of construction of the svarup, of the spiritual body." So, what we take away from this as with dedicating tendencies, the exploiting tendencies are minimized and diminishing and those which are sustaining the mundane form, that means that gradually the layers of karma and jnan, they're vanishing. And as in the ruci pariksa, Guru Maharaj said, "The Guru," in his case Saraswati Thakur, "He is beginning to see the svarup manifest on account of dedicating tendencies.  

So, we have to remember the basis of this, vaikunther pritti vyadi sakala chinmoy, everything in the spiritual world is comprised of consciousness, of chinmoy, we're seeing things in the inverse, we think that wood and stone, and metal, and earth are substantial things. And things like consciousness are insubstantial, unverifiable or vague, abstract. But an inversion has to take place. When we'll realize, "This is the lower aspect." Bhumir apo analovayukamanu buddhir eva cha (?), the eight material energies, from gross to subtle, earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and ego. That's all mundane, and the beginning of the soul plane, the least aspect of the soul plane is higher than that,  

apareya ami tas tvanyam prkrtim vidyamme param jiva bhuta maha bhaho ya ye tam dharyate jagad,  

Is para sakti, a higher energy than this is the beginning of the soul plane, the general conscious plane and then which we call, atma to Paramatma, the Paramatma world, and then it's becoming more and more defined.  

bahunam janmana mante jnana vam prapadyate vasudev sarvamiti samahtma sudurlabha,  

It's the crossing over all these mundane misconceptions, coming to the realm of pure conception, begins with understanding Vasudev, Krsna is everything. But there He is in an isolated position, it means from the remotest position you're seeing Krsna and begin to make your approach nearer. Bhagavan means Sakti and Saktiman. So, on the lower hemisphere of the spiritual world Laksmi-Narayan, going further Sita-Ram, further Rukmini and Dvarakanath, further Mathuranath, further Krsna in Vrndavan with Radharani and Vraja-gopis. So, when we say, soul, it's a very general term, atma. But if we refine the concept and start coming more clearly into focus, meaning the soul, enriched with dedicating tendency, then what type of dedication? Vaikuntha? The dedication of Vaikuntha, of the type in Ayodhya, or the type in Dvaraka, the type in Vrndavan.  

vrndavan hoite srestha govardhana saila gandharvika giridhari jata krta koila  

And then in Vrndavan general groups, more specific groups. So, Srila Guru Maharaj tells us there is a gradation in everything. So, there is also gradation in the concept of identity of what we mean by soul. Brahman, spirit, it's a general term. Just like we say, God, God is a general term. Saraswati Thakur preferred Godhead to God, because God sounded more like the limitations of the Christian conception of Divinity, whereas Godhead allows for the full gradation and development of Divinity, all the different Avatars, incarnations. So, santa-rasa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, madhura, parakiya, svakiya. Jivera svarupa hoya krsnera nitya das, that's a general thing, we say, the svarup is that you're eternal servitor of Krsna, but what kind of servitor? A servitor in santa-rasa, or dasya-rasa? As in the passive relationship? As servant, friendship, parental and conjugal. And where? In Vaikuntha, in Dvaraka, in Mathura, Vrndavan. So, there is a gradation in everything.  

And as we told before the spiritual forms, like in the play, we talk about Krsna-lila, everything is constituting out of dedicating consciousness, consciousness enriched with a dedicating tendency.  

yat kinchit tri gumaki kikato mukam goste smastami tat arvananda mukunda daitam lilanukulam param,  

Radhunath Das Goswami says in his prayers, he is praising even the lower life forms, insects, trees, plants, everything, why?  He's saying, "They are mukunda doyita, they are dear to Krsna and they are lila-anukul, they're favorable to the pastimes of Krsna." But these divine forms they are not limited, as I told the other day, a child might play the role of a flower in a play. If you can understand that principle, still a child but taking on the form of the flower in a play. So, this is the Jamuna is taking on the form of the river, but she also has her personality, she can appear in a human-like form or as a river. So, we can't impose our mundane limitations, (?) prospects or possibility of Divine form. But,  

anyabhilasita sunyam jnana karma dhinavrtam anukulyenam krsna anusilanam bhaktir uttama  

But now that form is covered by layers of kara, jnan, by layers of ego, by layers of acquired tendencies, acquired exploiting tendencies. So, it's hidden beneath layers of ego and acquired exploiting tendencies. How to again manifest? Through dedication. The unit of construction of the svarup are dedicating tendencies. That we have to understand. It's not that now we will voyeuristically envision ourselves as super servitors in the super supersubjective world. As is the mistake of the prakrta sahajiyas. Sahakiya gurus from the very beginning say, "This is your identity, this is your svarup, here is your name, your dress, your form, you do these activities, now you practice that, until you realize that." I call it Stanislawsky method of sahajiism.  

Cause Stanislawsky this was his method for acting, meditate on that character, walk like them, dress like them, talk like them, think like them, do everything like them, and if you're good at it, you'll have an epiphany, you'll realize, you've become that character, you're not acting, you've transformed into that character. It's great for acting, but not for the cultivation of Krsna Consciousness. Rupa Goswami warns against this very thing. Those who are sentimental by nature and those who are acting. Rupa Goswami made this warning five hundred years ago, and I don't hink it was exlusively intended for people living now. That means even now, we have stories, Chaitanya Bhagavat, and elsewhere of someone feigning devotional, devotion, and ecstatic devotion.  

In Chaitanya-bhagavad there is the story when one snake-charmer, and there is a group of people assembled and Haridas Thakur, seeing the snakes, the cobras, he is reminded of Anantadev, he enters the divine transcend state of ecstasy, on account of that awareness his body is devastated with waves of ecstatic symptoms and he faints to the ground and all the people there are bowing, worshipping him, taking his feet dust. And some envious sahajiya Brahmin thinks, "For that he gets this? I can do better than that!" Then he puts on his show of devotional ecstatic symptoms, and the people are beating him. And he is thinking, "I don't understand when he did it you're all worshipping, taking feet dust, I do it, I am getting a club over the head." They are saying, "Yes, because what you're doing is mocking the great devotees for whom these things are real, you're imitating the maha-bhagavata."

We know Gaura Kisor das Babaji Maharaj, that, it's interesting one Western scholar, a lady, she studied all these so called saints of Bengal. And after she would study, then she'd say, "Well, many people think  this person was bogus." But she tell the story. But in her research, when it came to Gaura Kisor Das Babaji Maharaj she said, "Interestingly, no one thinks he is bogus.”  She is just making an observation. She is not a devotee per se, maybe closeted. But she thought, "Interestingly, no one challenges his authenticity." And she told some legend story of after he left an outhouse where he was taking Krsna-nam, witnesses observed that the bricks of the outhouse were vibrating Krsna-nam. So, inanimate had been awakened to Krsna consciousness, not just a consciousness, cause, jivadbuta mahabaho ya yet daryate jagad, jivas are everywhere, but they've been awakened to Krsna consciousness, those which were in suspended animation, in inanimate state. Anyway.  

So, Gaura Kisor das Babaji Maharaj we're told one man thought to imitate him. Like whatever he'll do, I'll do. Cause there is what you call, any char and anu sar. One is imitation and the other is to follow substantially. Anyway, so he's doing the same thing. He is living, makes the hut on the banks of the Ganga, he is chanting Krsna-nam all the time, performing austerities, and in time he is also exhibiting ecstatic symptoms. People hear some extraordinary cries, groans from his hut. And they approach Gaura Kisor das Babaji Maharaj, and Babaji Maharaj was known for his cryptic remarks. Srila Prabhupad Swami Maharaj once said, "Gaura Kisor Das Babaji Maharaj was a very humorous fellow." So, they approached Babaji Maharaj and he says, "If a lady enters a labor room," the labor room where you give birth to a baby, "If woman enters the labor room and starts moaning and groaning and contorting, will she produce a baby?" And in the words of Guru Maharaj, he said, "Certain activities must have preceded that." Before the gestation period of time (?) will come, but just imitating, entering a labor room, if woman entering a labor room and starts imitating the behavior, the movements, the cries, the groans of a woman who is actually giving birth, nothing substantial will come of it.

So, how to achieve that position? How to become enriched with dedicating tendency? If that's the route to the svarup, how to become enriched, sadhu sanga, sarva sastra koi lava matra sadhu sange sarva siddhi hoi (?), association, bhaktya-sajataya bhaktya, a candle can light another candle, a candle cannot ignite itself, a candle bearing illumination can light another, another, another. Krsna is atma prijnana mayo (?), He is self-illuminating. And who He extends Himself to, they can also be illuminated and illuminate others. And what is it saying?

krsna bhakti janma mohoi sadhu sanga (?), the root cause of devotion or dedicating tendency is sadhu sanga. Even in a higher stages, Krsna-prema, still always, eternally, forever under the shelter of the asraya-vigraha, Guru.

So, when we hear that Radha has anga-jyoti, Subal has anga-jyoti, etc. if we think, "Oh, their jyoti is comprised of so many personalities, who innately given to that sort of dedicating tendency," we shouldn't think, that jyoti means light in the conventional sense. Just like if we (?) have a personality, a divine illuminating personality, surrounded by their entourage, that's also a type of jyoti, effulgence. So, when we hear jyoti or light, we shouldn't think that that means there is no svarup or form or personality. Once Srila guru Maharaj said that exalted souls with microscopic vision can look into the Brahma jyoti and see the svarup of the jivas located there. Like anyone who is familiar with printing. You know in color printing, you have magenta, cyan, yellow and black. What you see is the uniform field of color, but if you take out a loop, a magnifier and you look at that, you'll see that you're seeing as a uniform field of color and expression. If you look you'll see yellow dots, black dots, cyan dots, magenta dots. So, it's something like that, it's a crude example, but you can understand something from this.  

But that form is comprised of dedicating tendency. That's the important point to understand. We think that what is ethereal is spiritual. Like people in this world they think, if some mundane thing has some sort of power they think it's spiritual. Like medicine has power, doesn't mean it's spiritual, alcohol has power, it doesn't mean it's spiritual. If a jewel or a gem has some power it doesn't mean it's spiritual. It's a mundane thing, it's a mundane type of power, it's not spiritual. Spiritual means beyond these eight-fold layers and coverings of mundane. Spiritual in the true essence means enriched with a dedicating tendency. Not to use some power within this world for mundane purpose, to suit our lower purpose. That's why it's an offence against divinity to take the higher things and use them for a lower purpose. Generally we accustom in a mood of consumers to consume that which is lower than us, whereas spirit, spiritual approach in earnest means to offer ourselves in service to that which is higher, the approach to the higher is through the service, not to trying harness it and force it to serve us.

So, in Bhagavad-gita it says, ascharjavat paschati kascharenam (?), if you have a glimpse of your soul, even in it's most elementary form, you'll be astonished, what to speak of it's potential in the land of dedication. So, sometimes Srila Guru Maharaj would say to us from that perspective, he'd say, "Your future is so bright, you can't imagine what awaits you. If you continue pursuing Krsna Consciousness." We haven't properly conceived that. Any other question?

Devotee: Maybe short one. First, when you call Krsna to capture you heart, like Guru puts a seed and then it spouts and grows. And also from another variant, you can distinct Krsna Consciousness that it's a thing which you cannot resist. So, if you try…  

Goswami Maharaj: Irresistible.  

Devotee: Yes, so if you try to resist something and you can resist it, so it's not Krsna Consciousness.  

Goswami Maharaj: No, I am the source of that statement, and what I was talking about is something a little more specific. I said that the devotees, if some ecstatic feeling, some spiritual emotion, some higher sort of thing comes to them, their natural tendency is to trying resist that, to think, "I am unqualified to have such feelings, to be blessed with these things." Whereas just as we told before, sahajiya imitationists they're trying to induce tears. They want to be seen crying. So, the people think, "Oh, heard the name of Krsna and started crying. Must be an exalted devotee." Rupa Goswami warned, he said, "No, some people are just sentimental, they are crying, many things, (?) anything, and others are acting." So, I was making a very specific point, that substantial devotees they are trying resist these things, thinking along the lines, "If that can be resisted, then it wasn't something substantial." But if one tries to resist that and was unable to resist it, in the case, I'm talking about very exalted devotees here. Srila Saraswati Thakur were told, if some emotion was coming to him, while speaking about Krsna, he meticulously suppress that, to not mislead neophytes, who aproan (?) to trying exhibit such things. He is the Guru, the head Guru, he shows that. Then others will imitate that. So, he is suppressing that, as far as possible.  

But Srila Guru Maharaj points it out, and you can see, when you see any picture of him, he is the personification of gravity. But that person, jati-raja-ganai, (?), the king of the sannaysis, Srila Sarawati Thakur, Srila Guru Maharaj said, "In venting the verse asa bare amrta sindhu mai kathanaca (?), which is a sloka of Radhunath Das Goswami, expresseing his heat's inner aspiration for the service of the holy lotus feet of Radharani. sometimes in expressing that sloka Srila Guru Maharaj said, he was crying uncontrollably. So, two points are interesting. One's that the personification of gravity who meticulously suppressed any such things sometimes with a selected group of the disciple behind closed doors and feeling what is incouched (?) in that sloka, he was found to cry uncontrollably, it's a service aspiration and this is the other point. Others who are feigning symptoms, it's about something, some pastimes with intimate aspects, etc. Here, what's moving him to tears is the service aspiration for the lotus feet of Srimati Radharani, how pure his heart, echoing the sentiments of Raghunath Das Goswami, without of Her holy lotus feet life is not worth living.  

Rupa Goswami gives the example of Daruka and Radharani in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, that Daruka, he is Krsna's charioteer, sometimes he's fanning him, sometimes he's moved to ecstatic symptoms, he's cursing those symptoms, because being stunned he can't continue with his service. Radharani is cursing Her ecstasy for flooding Her eyes with tears and blurring the vision of Krsna. So, it's going to the other extreme where is sahajiya imitationist and neophyte wannabes are trying to induce within themselves some expression of emotion, feeling, tears, etc. So that others will get the impression that they are advanced in devotion, they are making an ostentatious display of devotion for name and fame, we see, whose who actually have devotion, they are at the other end of the spectrum, cursing ecstasy from interfering with their seva. That's the point. So, when I said about irresistible, this line of defense of the higher devotees, and we can learn from that as well. We don't want something cheap. So, we think by comparison, we're new recruits, who are we to give vent to such feelings, etc. Will rather then trying to augment such feelings, suppress them. And if it's irresistible then maybe, there is touch of substance there. The Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu is the science of devotion, just like in science,  they have a way of tasking things. So, in the science of devotion, Rupa Goswami has a way of testing whether something is real and genuine or false and counterfeit.  

And look, when we say, calling for Krsna, that's not something in the past, and if you look to Krsna-lila, what will be expected from progressive servitors? We hear in the case of Draupadi that when she is lost, she is gambled away by her husbands and when the Kauravas, they want to humiliate her and humiliate the Pandavas, and they call for her to enter the assembly, and they want to strip her publicly to disrobe her in an open assembly, this woman of impeccable character, saintly qualities and dignity. They want to disrobe her publicly, now that they own her. And when she enters that scene what are told first, she is crying, she is calling for Krsna. And there is no response. And she is trying to keep her dignity and modesty, and when she has, she is holding with her hands her remaining cloth and when she utterly hopeless and helpless she throws up both of her hand in the air, she surrenders to her destiny, her fate and says, "Hey, Gopijana Vallabha!" When she addresses Krsna, as the beloved of the Vraja-gopis, then Krsna comes. But He didn't respond before that. Mam ekam saranam vraja, vraja saranam, this type of total giving of the self over to Krsna, and one's fate to Krsna. Anukulyasya sankalpa pratikulyasya varjanam, raksisyati tivasvaso goptritve, so offering oneself to Krsna, expecting Krsna will protect me, "Rakhe Krsna marike mari Krsna rakheke." If Krsna wants to protect me no one can harm me, if He wants to kill me no one can save me.

When she reaches that level, the vraja-saranam, "Hey, Gopijana Vallabha!" Then Krsna is miraculously, mysteriously supplying the cloth. And we hear what is that? Once when she was a girl, and Krsna cut once, and she tore her cloth and made a bandage for Krsna. You give little finite to Krsna, and the Infinite comes in return. So, as Guru Maharaj's saying, "Die to live."

Aslisya va padam pinastu mam adarsana marma hatam karotuva yata tatha … sa eva na para

Unconditional surrender. We can't expect to get the result that Prahlad got, the result that Draupadi got, the result that so many have got, adarsana, maybe Krsna will not appear. We'll think, "Who am I?" That's for the great devotees. How much have I given of myself that would warrant such response? That's what we're talking about, that principle. Anartha nivrtti, Guru Maharaj said, that the substantial devotees will never think they've achieved anartha-nivrtti. Like we would hear some devotee's saying, "Well, after I've been chanting Hare Krsna mantra for thirty years and following." Thirty years is nothing, three hundred years is nothing, three hundred life times is nothing.

When Mukunda somehow (?) of favor of Mahaprabhu and was told, "Don't allow him near me anymore, he can't be in my inner circle. I don't want to see his face here, his name, nothing." And the devotees had to tell Mukunda that, he said, "Then ask Mahaprabhu when will I get his darsan again?" And they deliver the message, Mahaprabhu said, "In a million years." And  they go back and tell Mukunda, "In a million years." And he is, "Hare Krsna!" He is ecstatic, "In a million years I'll to see the lotus feet of my Lord." Then they tell Mahaprabhu, "And what did he say, when you told him million years?" "He was dancing in ecstasy." He said, "Tell him to come, his million years are up." The expansion and contraction of time and space. The rasa-lila, Brahma-ratri, lasted for an evening of Brahma, and to the Vraja-gopis on account of their intense affection seem like a blink of an eye. And their separation for when they, Krsna, they're walking, He goes behind the tree and for the blink of an eye they're separated, it's seems like a day of Brahma to them on account of the intensity of their love and affection. What price would be appropriate to enter that domain? What would be the appropriate level of sacrifice or the appropriate price to pay? That Srila Guru Maharaj reminds us. So, just to know that we're going in the right direction is more than inspiring for the modest progressive devotee. Hare Krsna.